Episode 87: Website and Customer Relationship Management (CRM) with Steven Rydin
In this season of the Data Sleuth Podcast, join Leah Wietholter as she discusses the business of forensic accounting with successful professionals who have done just that! As part of this series, Workman Forensics and podcast guests are providing free resources and tools to accompany each episode to help you with your practice whether you’re just starting out or wanting to take it to the next level. Make sure to listen to the end of the episode to find out how to download! Lastly, during the last episode of the season, we are going to answer all of your questions - so if you have any questions about the business of forensic accounting, send them to Leah via YouTube, LinkedIn, or by emailing us at podcast@workmanforensics.com.
Today’s episode with Steven Rydin is about websites and customer relationship management tools.
Considerations for building a website from scratch
Explanation of SEO “search engine optimization”
How to incorporate CRM
As the CEO of B2B Reviews, Steven leads a company that provides a trusted third-party resource for busy businesses looking for the best software vendors for their needs. With our expert buying guides and proprietary matching tools, we save time and money for our clients and help them avoid disastrous consequences of choosing the wrong vendors.
LinkedIn: Steven Rydin
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN TODAY’S EPISODE
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To learn more about the Investigation Game Education Edition, visit: workmanforensics.com/tig-educators
Order your copy of Leah’s book, Data Sleuth: Using Data in Forensic Accounting and Fraud Investigations today on Amazon!
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Transcript
Leah Wietholter:
Hi, I am Leah Wietholter, CEO, and founder of Workman Forensics in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This is The Data Sleuth Podcast. In this season of The Data Sleuth Podcast, I'm discussing the business of forensic accounting with successful professionals who have done just that or they serve those who do. As part of this series, working forensics and our guests are providing free resources and tools to accompany each episode's topic to help you with your practice, whether you're just starting out or wanting to take it to the next level. Make sure to listen to the end to find out how to download each one of these. For the last episode of the year, Tracy Conan and I are going to team up to answer all of your questions.
So, if you have any questions about the business of forensic accounting or even forensic accounting in general, send them in via YouTube, LinkedIn, or by emailing us at podcast@workmanforensics.com. In today's episode of The Data Sleuth Podcast, I talk with Steven Rydin about websites and customer relationship management tools for CRM. In this episode, we talk about considerations for building a website from scratch, the purpose of a website, your content of a website, an explanation of SEO or search engine optimization, and even how to incorporate customer relationship management tools.
As the CEO of B2B Reviews, Steven Rydin leads a company that provides a trusted third-party resource for busy businesses, looking for the best software vendors for their needs. With their expert buying guides and proprietary matching tools, they save time and money for their clients and help them avoid disastrous consequences of choosing the wrong vendors. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Well, hi, Steven. Thanks so much for joining me today.
Steven Rydin:
How are you?
Leah Wietholter:
Glad to have you. So, we're going to just jump right into our topics today. So, we are focusing on forensic accounting as a business this season, and so you and I have known each other for a very long time. For our listeners, we actually met at Oral Roberts University. Did we graduate the same year?
Steven Rydin:
I finished in December of 2007.
Leah Wietholter:
Okay. I was May of... 2007? Oh yeah, okay. I was May of 2007. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so we were there same time, and then we've worked together on several projects. We'll probably talk about that a little bit, but now that we've been out of college so long, you are a marketing expert and also my only friend in Salt Lake City since we moved.
Steven Rydin:
Maybe for now, but that's not true for all.
Leah Wietholter:
Hopefully. No, that's been great. So, what are some of your favorite aspects or maybe tips, tricks as it relates to marketing for small businesses? You've owned several small businesses. I mean, you just have so much experience that I've read in the bio, but I'm just curious, what are some of the things that you think just really help a small business get off the ground?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, good question. Well, I'm a big fan of the innovation economy. For me, I think just being connected to that ecosystem, people who are out in the market, wherever they are, making a difference, creating businesses, products and services that have value for their customers. I think that's really the most important thing. So, if you're thinking about starting a business or if you already have one, focusing on creating customer value, it's the whole story of marketing, right?
Leah Wietholter:
It's the whole point. Yeah.
Steven Rydin:
It's the whole point. I mean, there's a lot of new ways, especially in marketing and often very little signal, but by focusing on your customer and helping people, you stand out. I think that's my answer to that question, really just focus on helping people and some of the outcomes that you hope for will follow.
Leah Wietholter:
I absolutely agree. There's a friend of mine that's in this space that she talks about how forensic accounting is a niche, but you can even specialize within that niche. Then how does that niche serve people? Just really focusing on that area instead of just creating content just to say you're creating content, just really focusing on what do you do best to serve people and then letting people know about that. Okay. So, today, I wanted to talk about websites, customer or client relationship management tools, but first you started a company called B2B Reviews. How does this business work? What is this business? How does this business work, and then how does it help with a business's online marketing strategy?
Steven Rydin:
So most entrepreneurs spend all their time selling and managing people. It's very often the focus of their business. It's what causes their business to grow. But these business owners need tools, and it can be very difficult to find the right tools for a business. Many times the opportunity cost of spending time, searching, reading reviews, it's exhausting to be honest and the opportunity cost is high. So, B2B Reviews exist to help these business owners who are busy people to make good choices by offering free tools online, where we recommend great options for you in a variety of categories, anything from CRM software to accounting software and beyond.
That's what we'd like to do is help people find the right tools, so that they don't have burdensome switching costs or bad experiences. We want to help people find the right tools. I know there are so many of them out there, and there are a number of great options for people. We are just telling that story.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh, my gosh. So, often, whenever I'm talking to somebody about joining our firm, they want to know, "Okay, we use a lot of technology at Workman Forensics," and they're like, "What do you use?" And then they want to tell me about all these other great tools that they've used. Whenever they're telling me, I'm trying to just smile and listen, but I really have this moment of to implement the tool you're talking about is so much time and energy, especially when we've invested in these other tools, we've automated these other tools, they talk to other tools within the firm. So, yeah, just even making that decision, I mean, trying to sift through the different... There are just so many tools available to small business owners these days.
Steven Rydin:
It's a great thing, but it also creates, again, a lot of noise and it's tough to know which tools to use, which would work together to your point. So, we exist to help simplify that process, and I think we're doing it.
Leah Wietholter:
That's awesome. So, what do you think in today's world the purpose of a website is for someone who is, say, forensic accountant, because the focus of this podcast, but also just consultants in general?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah. Well, we're in a tech enabled business world, and in that world, the website is literally your storefront. Passersby will look at it if they find it and they'll decide whether or not they want to take a peek inside your business. So, the website is really a tool for users to evaluate and decide if they want to work with you.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, I know and we're going to touch a little bit on SEO, but I feel like if you don't have a website, there is a perception that you're not a legitimate businessperson if you don't have a website. Actually, this isn't even related to a website. One time I went to this networking thing and handed out my business cards, and then I got some feedback later where this person who'd heard my pitch or something at this event said, "Oh, I saw that you have a Facebook page and I was like, 'Oh yeah, this girl's totally legit.'" I was like, "Oh, my gosh. It is not that hard to set up a Facebook page." But I feel like it's the same for websites.
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, it's a way for people to know that you're serious.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, for sure. Okay. Obviously, like I already said, we met in college, but then after college, I actually don't know when you started doing this, but you helped me after college build the very first Workman Forensics website and then you also helped us build our fraud reporting website early on. So, I wanted to see if we could tap into your knowledge in that area as well. Do you have any recommendations about what a forensic accountant or consultant should consider when building a website like content, style, their purpose? You can touch on some SEO, just let you run with that.
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, I can break that down part by part. For the content, I think more than ever, it's important that the site is helpful to users. Google has gone through a number of revisions to the way that they surface websites in their algorithm. All of the story of those revisions is helpful content. So, for service providers, what it means to have helpful content is to help users to quickly assess that you as that service provider are experienced. By that, I mean that you have practiced your trade and also that you have some special or unique insights that can be transformed into authority and then that you can be trusted.
So, all of the content on the site really needs to convey those three things, expertise, experience, and trust. By conveying the trustworthiness, you're notably helping those robot users crawl the web, but you're helping your human users too. That's really probably the most important thing to focus on across the board for the website is making sure that you have helpful content.
Leah Wietholter:
What about the layout of that content? What do you think is successful?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah. Well, I mean, each business has their own style. Each business has their own style and that reflects their brand, and that's great. Obviously, there isn't one particular style that's suited for all businesses. You may find that being witty or clever, it resonates with your brand. Others use humor. Maybe for something like forensic accounting, it's not professional to do that. It needs to be more dry, so to speak. But even more important than what the style is, I think it's important that whatever style you choose is consistent throughout the site and agencies create style guides for this reason. So, you want to convey consistency with the style. I think that that helps you to relate to your users consistently and to create trust with them.
Leah Wietholter:
Okay, so back in the day, I remember when we were talking about websites, we would talk about how much text do we need to help with SEO and help people find us through search engines versus maybe things that are graphics or video. Is that still the same? Do you still need quite a bit of text for those robots to search, or has it become more intuitive where you can have more creative elements that work in your favor?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah. So, when we talk about SEO, just stepping back for a second, I don't know if we actually defined this. SEO is search engine optimization. So, this is that endless pursuit of getting more visibility in a Google Search result or another search engine. We use Google as a proxy for search, because at least in most markets, it's the number one search engine. So, the tactics have changed and will continue to change. Back to the helpful content, the answer to how long should the content be is typically long enough to be helpful. It depends on the page. About this page may be relatively short compared to something like the top things to know about selecting a forensic account. So, that may need to be a 5,000-word article.
Doing the competitor research and looking at what's already ranking for a particular query is going to help surface questions. How long should this be and what should we talk about? But long enough to be helpful is the short answer. On the point of, "What is the purpose of the website?", I think for most service businesses, typically, they're often busy. They get referral business because good business is usually worth referring. Nobody refers a bad business. So, if it's an account, no one's going to refer a bad account. So, this idea of what is the purpose of a website, in many cases, it's like checking this vendor due diligence checklist piece. So, you want to make sure that this reflects your brand in a way that is a standard for you.
If you're the name, if it's Workman Forensics, you want to make sure that the website's going to be a good standard for you and then it does check that box, but it doesn't need to do a lot more than that in most cases. If you're new or growing business, you may not have capacity constraints. So, in that case, it can definitely be a tool for growing the business. I think the purpose of the website really depends on where you are at as a business, but certainly, it needs to stand in for you.
Leah Wietholter:
That's a really great point about that purpose changing. As you were talking, I was thinking about whenever I first created the website, it was for legitimacy, because I was new and I wanted it to be a really clean, nice website. So, that as I was going to meet attorneys, they could go to my website and go, "Oh, she spent time on a website." I started my business in 2010, and I think we worked on the website in 2011. There were not any forensic accounting websites out there. I knew that if I stayed in business, this was going to be really strategic, having the longevity of a long-lasting forensic accounting website.
But then over the years, when my capacity got full and I wanted to start promoting my team members and trying to recruit for those team members where people could call and not just say, "Can I talk to Leah?", then we started building out the website a little differently where we started making those other individuals experts on the website, maybe having them on the podcast, having them write a blog, things like that. At a certain point, in about 2018, 2019, we were trying to work cases outside of Oklahoma as well as Oklahoma.
I mean, Oklahoma cases, plenty busy, but just for diversification and just growth and expansion. So, we started creating the podcast and inviting other people on where we were meeting people outside of Oklahoma, things like that. Of course, all of that content started going on our website. So, yeah, it can grow and change. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, on SEO, it really is an endless pursuit. I mean, for a lot of local businesses, it's enough just to have a website and approval maps listing, but for most national businesses, they need to hire an agency and the needs can explode in terms of complexity very quickly.
Leah Wietholter:
That reminds me too, there was also a time where I wanted to capture if somebody didn't have a referral to us, I wanted to be the go-to person for that person. I wanted people to find us on Google. There's quite a few consultants that I know that they get so much referral work that they don't even care where they rank on Google. But for me, I said, "If someone has a problem in Tulsa, in Oklahoma City, in anywhere in Oklahoma, I want us to be their first call." So then that drove some of our decisions too. How do we make sure we stay up in these rankings? What would help us do that? But that was just for a specific season.
Steven Rydin:
I mean, in a lot of ways, you're practicing the principles that I was talking about. You wanted your website to be helpful to users and that being a resource, whether you could actually be the service provider for these people, those are different value propositions. By helping a broader audience, I think in a lot of ways, you are helping yourself too.
Leah Wietholter:
That's true. That's true. So, where should someone start if they're looking to build a website and how much should they expect to spend?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, starting from scratch, I feel like it's more and more rare these days for a website. A lot of businesses, I think we've passed the first and second phase of digitalization of businesses, but if somebody's starting something from new, from scratch, there are a lot of great and free, in some case, tools out there. WordPress, Squarespace isn't free, but it's a very low cost option.
So, probably more important than which web hosting or web CMS or content management system you use, it's making sure that you have assembled the right team. Probably one of the most common mistakes that people make when either designing one for the first time or redesigning it is they'll have a web developer do everything from creating the content to doing the software development in between. So, what you really need, a more seasoned approach is having a person who's a developer doing the coding of the site, and that person's separate from the one who's writing content. That person could be in-house at the company or hired as a freelancer.
Then a third rule and I think a nice to have, but really depending on how competitive your space is, it could be a must have is having a UX designer, user experience person who can help to make sure that the individual parts create a sum that's greater than the individual parts. So, the separation of concerns there, those different roles is critical, because they are different skill sets typically. It's not unusual for a lot of service providers. If you're searching through their website, you can find lorem ipsum or gibberish content that they've left on there because they put too much of the burden of what should be set on the web designer. So, it's very important. I think even more important than having the right tool is making sure that you have put together a good team to build the site.
Leah Wietholter:
That's a great point. I know on my site, I wrote a lot of the content and it took me a little bit to get the voice that I wanted, but because in our space, I think it's real easy to have this tone that's fearful. Oh, you don't know what's lurking in the shadows of your business type thing. My approach and our Data Sleuth approach to things is that, yes, these things happen, but because we can investigate things and uncover things, we can uncover what happened, we can recover our loss and then we can get back to business and make it better than it was before. So, I wanted it to be a more positive approach to things that are typically pretty catastrophic in businesses.
So, it took me a little bit to find that voice, but as a forensic accountant, it had to be accurate information, so I couldn't turn that over to just a developer like you're talking about. So, that's just one thing that I think is something that I didn't think about when I was first creating. I mean, one, I had to write it whenever you and I were working together, because I had no money. But later on when I've revamped the site, I still have to write it because it could be used in court. I was literally asked in a deposition one time, they said, "Your bio online says that you're a modern day Sherlock Holmes. What does that mean?" This guy, the attorney asking me almost seemed offended that I said I was a modern day Sherlock Holmes. I think he was a hardcore Sherlock Holmes fan.
So, I had to explain where that came from. Actually, that phrase had been written by a friend of ours, which is actually going to be on another episode of the podcast, Tatiana. She came up with that idea. It's just funny, the little things that could come up in this world of forensic accounting that's shown up on the website. So, you definitely don't want somebody just writing your content for you or writing it without reviewing it.
Steven Rydin:
Well, you can be a SME, subject matter expert, and still get support from a marketing consultant or a copy editor. So, I think those are complimentary roles.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, just definitely have to be comfortable with what they're writing about you. Yeah, Tatiana has written quite a bit for us and other people and other copywriters have too. Then just as some feedback for our listeners, our website is built on Squarespace. I didn't have a problem with WordPress. There's awesome people that can support in that area, but we were creating a lot of products and making a lot of changes in just how we were serving customers and trying to make it more user-friendly.
So, we just had some creative people in house, and none of us were coders. So, we just learned how to operate within Squarespace. So, then of course, I could go in and edit the content, make sure I was comfortable with it. That just worked for us, but yeah, we've used WordPress and other things.
Steven Rydin:
It's a great tool for a lot of small businesses today. They rely on it. In general, the more you invest in your website, the more you get out of it. But every business is making trade-offs. How do they invest their budget? Especially when you're at capacity or near capacity, it's hard to justify investing additional capital with something like a website when you buy with maybe something more affordable.
Leah Wietholter:
Yup, absolutely. Let's take a short break and we'll be right back.
Speaker 3:
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Leah Wietholter:
Welcome back to my conversation with Steven. So, I want to move from the content still in the same vein of the contents of the website, but how can we use a website to work for us and also help us with our marketing? I've always had this picture in my mind of creating a marketing machine. So, that yes, I'm doing business development, I'm talking to people in person, and maybe I'm doing some presentations, but how do I also have that website working for me to help with that business development and leads?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, great question. In many cases, the website, you have these users who are coming to visit you and it's a valuable tool and people are going to naturally want to reach out to you, whether it's answering questions that they have or even wanting to hire you as a business that provides a service. So, there's a lot of ways you can do that. But typically, having a call to action audit page, like a service page, you don't necessarily need to list your prices, but you can say for more information and thing and then have a form. The form is really just the modern day version of the phone call, and that's what people used to do, pick up the phone and call.
But I think the form in many ways is superior to the phone call, because when people take time to read your site, get to know you and what you do, and they like you enough to give their personal information, it's something that's actionable. Right away, you can put that person in a list of some kind and into your CRM and then follow up with them. Ideally, they're a warm lead. It's somebody that already knows you, likes you, potentially wants to do business with you. So, that's really the natural outcome of having the site that's helpful is that you can capture people and put them in your customer relationship database.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. One of the ways that we do this at Workman Forensics is that we actually provide complimentary consultations, but we don't give every inquiry a consultation. So, our call to action on our homepage in several locations is a complimentary or a consultation request. So, they will request information about our firm. I try to ask for as little personal information as possible at this step, but I do want to know, "Are they represented by an attorney?" That factors into my decision making about taking on their case. What type of case? Just really high level information. So, then one, we've captured this information for maybe future emails or something and maybe it's not a good fit right now, but maybe in the future.
But also, it helps set us up to decide, "Is this a case that we have capacity to take on?" If so, we can move them forward in our process, get more information. If not, it gives us an opportunity to provide them with resources. Hey, we're not able to help you with this right now, but here's a whole list of service providers that we recommend that we do business with. So, that's just one way that we do it just from our homepage, in addition to just having that simple subscribe area at the bottom where they can choose to subscribe to our emails.
Steven Rydin:
Makes sense. I think the sales cycle, so to speak, or the customer journey for your business is probably a little bit longer than it may be for a restaurant or some other business where you're ready to transact the moment that you reach out. So, this is a great reason why it's good to have a system that you can use to keep track of those people that nurture them along their journey.
Leah Wietholter:
I'll say back in the day when we maybe didn't have as many cases and I wasn't being as picky because I just needed some revenue, I didn't do it that way. It was like, "Call us now." I would take every call and I would consult with them, but still gathering that information so then I could turn it into I can nurture through emails or mainly emails.
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, I'm working with an accounting service right now, and they charge for consultations. They won't do them for free. That makes sense, because in some ways, there's a glut of business that they're working through. It's a nice position to be in as a leader in space.
Leah Wietholter:
For sure. So, the CRM software that I use, they will actually provide those forms. You can customize your forms and stuff and we'll talk about that, but not only with those forms, you can also pay for the consultation at the same time. So, my CRM now offers where if you're going to take a consultation, they can actually prepay that. So, that's nice.
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, that's great. You don't have to go build something or worry about the security of capturing payments and the integrated payment systems. That's great. That's a great use case.
Leah Wietholter:
I mean, lead generation, but also what are some other ways that a consultant or forensic accountant could use a customer relationship management tool or CRM tool and do you have any that you think work well?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah. Well, it's not really just for the lead stage customer record. I mean, if you think about the consumer journey as a funnel, this is the way most marketers convey the idea is it starts wide at the top and then it gets narrow as the user goes through the phases of the buyer journey, because there's attrition at each level. So, maybe all the people who visit your website, it's a big number. Some of those people will become leads. Some of those leads will become consultations. Some of the consultations will become customers. It's good to understand not just the reporting, but where the jump points are along the way, because those are opportunities for you to improve your marketing and then to make sure that no customer is left behind.
So, if you have more than one person on your team, knowing who each customer is assigned to is important, even if it's just customers, not necessarily leads. So, this is a coordination tool that really helps even the smallest of businesses to make sure that they're not leaving revenue on the table. I mean, there's so many great options out there, but I think for small businesses, HubSpot is really a great tool. I mean, they have the marketing services and the CS or the customer service tools as well. So, they have different clouds that you can add on and HubSpot will give you a lot of the functionality that you could get from piecing together other tools, but it's all built into a system that works.
It'll get you certainly from zero to something meaningful and it's not like an enterprise tool, but it's not trying to be an enterprise tool. It's really designed to meet the needs of most small businesses. So, for that reason, I really like HubSpot.
Leah Wietholter:
I'm also a HubSpot fan. That's what we use. I feel like anytime we're trying to get new information out, it'll handle our emails, it'll help us build landing pages, and then everything can just... Those forms, I mean, we even use HubSpot forms to gather client information that we then use to drop into our engagement letters, into our contracts so that we're not having to enter that information all the time. It feeds into Xero. It just connects with so many of the other systems that we use that it helps throughout even the entire engagement, I think.
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, it's got a lot of functionality. It can be very expensive. It can be hundreds of thousands of dollars depending on how you're using it, but it's a great accessible tool for a lot of small businesses.
Leah Wietholter:
You're right, the cost of a small team like mine is very manageable. I think you actually introduced me to Salesforce way back in the day and of course, I'm sure it is greatly improved, but the difference between the two for me-
Steven Rydin:
It has not.
Leah Wietholter:
It has not. What a bummer.
Steven Rydin:
Well, it depends on the which version you're using, but a lot of businesses use it. It's not accessible to most small businesses.
Leah Wietholter:
I just felt like the learning curve on it, it's like I don't have time to learn how all of this is functioning. HubSpot made a lot more sense to me. I could just implement it and then as I learned more about the tool, I could just implement it other places. To me, it's all about "How quickly can I get this system in place to start working for me?" I don't want to do a whole month. I mean, I just don't have time for that.
Steven Rydin:
Salesforce was the definitive tool. It is now no longer the definitive tool. There are others. I think, an up and coming one is Pipedrive, so you could check that out if you're looking to see how that compares to HubSpot. That's probably more designed to support the sales team in some ways than I think HubSpot is.
Leah Wietholter:
I see.
Steven Rydin:
HubSpot feels to me more like a marketing tool in a lot of ways. At least that's how I feel. The position is more on the marketing side.
Leah Wietholter:
I would agree. It has an option to track your sales and deals and things like that and we've tried to use it, but I don't really have anything where that has been really necessary.
Steven Rydin:
We did an extensive writeup on both HubSpot and Pipedrive on our site on B2B Reviews. So, to really do the tools justice, you have to look at the pros and cons there and do your own homework based on what we've written.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. That leads me to we've created a resources page for this season of the podcast. I know that what you provided us includes more, I think, than just HubSpot, but would you want to talk about the resource that you have on your website for our listeners?
Steven Rydin:
Yeah. We put together a list of the best CRM software, and we tried to thoughtfully put together the list and then personas that each of the tools is good for. We have five that would appeal to most teams. There's one industry specific option there as well. But if you want to look at a good high level analysis that was written by our SaaS author, check out our CRM software review.
Leah Wietholter:
Okay, great. We will make sure that that's included on our resources page, and if our listeners have any questions for you, what's the best way to connect?
Steven Rydin:
You could find me on LinkedIn. Just have my name and you can always private message me. I'd be happy to respond and try to give you either an answer or a resource.
Leah Wietholter:
Perfect. We'll make sure to include that in the show notes. So, thank you, Steven, so much for joining me today.
Steven Rydin:
Yeah, thanks, Leah, for the invitation. This is a lot of fun.
Leah Wietholter:
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Data Sleuth Podcast. The resources discussed in today's episode are available at datasleuthpodcast.com, also available in the show notes. If you have any questions you would like answered in the Q&A episode of the season, make sure to send them to podcast@workmanforensics.com or the Workman Forensics YouTube page or the Workman Forensics LinkedIn page. The Data Sleuth Podcast is a production of Workman Forensics. Thank you for listening.