Episode 85: Marketing & Networking as a Consultant with Amanda Jo Erven, CPA, CIA, CFE, CTQA
In this season of the Data Sleuth Podcast, join Leah Wietholter as she discusses the business of forensic accounting with successful professionals who have done just that! As part of this series, Workman Forensics and podcast guests are providing free resources and tools to accompany each episode to help you with your practice whether you’re just starting out or wanting to take it to the next level. Make sure to listen to the end of the episode to find out how to download! Lastly, during the last episode of the season, we are going to answer all of your questions - so if you have any questions about the business of forensic accounting, send them to Leah via YouTube, LinkedIn, or by emailing us at podcast@workmanforensics.com.
Today’s episode with Amanda “Jo” Erven is all about networking in the field of forensic accounting. In this episode, Jo and Leah discuss:
Dos and Don’ts of networking on LinkedIn
How to build connections and network when you’re an introvert
How to create organic opportunities for others to approach you at an event
Amanda “Jo” Erven is an auditor, a professor, and an ethics speaker… that prides herself on not being your TYPICAL auditor, professor, or ethics speaker. She believes our path to greatness begins with the “character choice” we make each and every day – and her passion is sharing that with audiences - just like this one!
Website: Audit. Consulting. Education.
LinkedIn: Amanda Jo Erven
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN TODAY’S EPISODE
To access the downloads discussed in this episode, visit: datasleuthpodcast.com
To learn more about the Investigation Game Education Edition, visit: workmanforensics.com/tig-educators
Order your copy of Leah’s book, Data Sleuth: Using Data in Forensic Accounting and Fraud Investigations today on Amazon!
To register for the 2024 Fraud Retreat Visit: www.fraudretreat.com
CONNECT WITH WORKMAN FORENSICS
Youtube: @WorkmanForensics
Facebook: @wforensics
Twitter: @wforensics
Instagram: @wforensics
LinkedIn: @workmanforensics
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Transcript
Leah Wietholter:
Hi, I am Leah Wietholter, CEO and founder of Workman Forensics in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And this is the Data Sleuth podcast. In this season of the Data Sleuth podcast, I'm discussing the business of forensic accounting with successful professionals who have done just that, or they serve those who do. As part of this series, Workman Forensics and our guests are providing free resources and tools to accompany each episode's topic to help you with your practice, whether you're just starting out or wanting to take it to the next level. Make sure to listen to the end to find out how to download each one of these.
For the last episode of the year, Tracy Conan and I are going to team up to answer all of your questions. So if you have any questions about the business of forensic accounting or even forensic accounting in general, send them in via YouTube, LinkedIn, or by emailing us at podcast@workmanforensics.com.
In today's episode with Jo Erven, I have the opportunity to talk to her about marketing and networking. I've known Jo for several years now and she is always so great at connecting people, creating events where people can connect. It's very central to her business, and so I'm excited to have her on the show today. Amanda Jo Erven is an auditor, a professor, and an ethics speaker. She prides herself on not being your typical auditor, professor, or ethics speaker, and she believes that our path to greatness begins with a character choice that we make each and every day. And her passion is sharing that with audiences just like this one. Jo, thank you so much for joining me today.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Thanks for having me.
Leah Wietholter:
So, okay, we've known each other for a while and I'm sure we're going to tell all kinds of stories in this episode, but after you worked in internal audit, you started your business a little under six years ago. So what inspired you to leave that internal audit world working in a company and go out on your own?
Amanda Jo Erven:
Let's just say I had a little push. Yeah, like many others, I think you wake up one day and you just realize that the values of the people around you or the company that you're working for just aren't a fit for you. And about six, well a little more than six years ago, so seven, eight years ago, I was going through some, I'd say major life changes. So I was having preventative surgeries and I actually had six surgeries in 22 months, and I felt like when you go through something like that, you reevaluate everything. Right? And I liked the company I was working for, so I don't want your listeners to think it was that, but it was more the people and specifically the boss. And you realize like, man, my values just really don't match this person and I'm not learning anything anymore.
And I was the director of internal audit and I just felt like I had kind of stopped my growth. And so, I woke up literally one day and there was a few pushes along the way and I gave a four week notice. I was working on a big initiative with our Canadian parent company and I said, "You know what? I will help finish that up, but then I need to move on. It's time." And sadly, I'm pretty open and transparent about it. I got walked out that afternoon, so you realize really quick, you probably didn't even know that, Leah.
Leah Wietholter:
I did not know that.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Yeah. When you are the director of internal audit, you're privy to a lot of information, whether that's upcoming mergers and acquisitions or payroll data. I had to tell myself that it was because of what I knew, not because of what I did. And that was a big learning moment and another opportunity for me. So anybody that's been in a situation like that where they've either been let go or where whatever it is, take some time to reflect that it is not you. It's a lot of different factors. So anyway, that was my push to leave. So I literally had four weeks to decide what I was going to do next. And I sent out a few resumes, but I started networking and I know that's what we're going to talk about a lot today. So I feel like this story is super fitting.
But who I networked with were people doing what I'm doing now, who were consulting with, lots of clients, who were training. I talked to people who were CPE, NASBA certified to give CPE because that was always my favorite part of my job was the teaching and the training of new staff, or when we got a new audit software I loved training my team on how to use it. And so, I knew that was a part of my job that I wanted to continue. So that's really how my business started. It was like my ah-ha moment. I get to do what I want now. Right?
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, that's awesome. So part of your story actually reminded me of part of mine, and I don't think I've talked about this on the podcast, but the fact that you were going to give four weeks notice, finish everything up, and then they walked you out that day, I think it's something that someone should consider if they're going to leave their job to start. Because the whole purpose of this season is the business of forensic accounting and being prepared for that. So my story is kind of the opposite. It's that I gave a month's notice so that I could finish my casework. There wasn't really anyone else to hand it off to. And so, I was really the only forensic accountant at this point, and so I was going to finish my cases. I gave them a heads up. I had started the CPA exam and I hadn't finished it.
And so, I asked them, as soon as I put in my notice, I said, "Are you going to ask me to pay you back for the CPA exam and the prep course?" And they said, "Oh, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know." I worked four weeks and the last day that I was there, they came in and said, "Oh, by the way, you're going to have to pay that back." And so, I had been planning for those four weeks, I didn't have savings to do this. I've got a whole nother story about that. But I was really starting from nothing, but I thought, "Oh no, I have these paychecks coming in and it'll be fine." And they kept my last paycheck.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Oh my goodness.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. It is just something to think about. And I was making such little money then it wasn't worth pursuing. It wasn't like I could take legal action. But it is just something to think about. Are you prepared if they ask you to leave that day?
Amanda Jo Erven:
Literally, I had worked there since 2005. I did have a couple years where I got married and moved out of state and came back, but literally had worked there for almost, well, it was like 11 years. And so, think about my office. I had collected so much stuff. So here's me scrambling to just get, because I don't want somebody to pack up my office. What are they going to leave? I had actually created a learning library outside of my office for all my staff. So I had every book that I've ever bought career-wise there. I had posters that I personally purchased about with quotes. This was our little study area. This was me all in with this job. And so, not being prepared to leave, I was literally texting some of my favorite staff and my friends at the company to come help me take a bag so that they could take it home for me, because I didn't want somebody seeing me walk out with a bunch of stuff, just be prepared literally for anything to happen.
And honestly, it was a life lesson for me. I have friends that have been laid off in internal audit quickly, and so it's sad. Almost be careful how established and comfortable you get. Right? Because the world can change in a second. So I know it was definitely a total learning thing for me. I had pictures of my son, I had pictures of Benjamin everywhere.
Leah Wietholter:
Right. I can just see your office actually with these posters and inspirational quote.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Like the bookcase on steroids, like literally, it was nuts.
Leah Wietholter:
Oh my goodness. Okay. So yeah, I totally hadn't prepped to talk about that at all, but I think it is something really important when thinking about starting your own business for sure. Especially if you're employed currently. So you and I met over LinkedIn at the first fraud retreat, and I realized whenever we had the first fraud retreat and we all started talking, all of us speakers knew each other because of LinkedIn. So I'm curious, how have you used LinkedIn to network and how has that helped you create the fraud retreat? And we'll talk a little bit more about the retreat too, but I mean, how do you practically approach people you've never met in a digital way?
Amanda Jo Erven:
Isn't that funny? And I feel like it was kind of probably pandemic, but I can tell you Kelly Paxton, I'm sure your listeners know Kelly. We met pre-pandemic on LinkedIn and it's like a cold reach out. I knew she was a part of the National Speakers Association. I saw she was a part of the Portland chapter. I was part of the Denver chapter. In 2019, they were getting ready to have our big NSA Influence conference in Denver at the Gaylord. The Gaylord had just opened. And so, Kelly and I arranged to meet in person there. But it was literally all LinkedIn and following people and looking at their content and saying, "Wow, that really resonates with me. I'm just going to message them." And I've got a story. We'll talk about it when we get into the retreat about how go outside your box. Even if you think it's somebody famous, they are real people.
I have LinkedIn messaged, and I know you have probably too, Tyler Schultz, the whistleblower at Theranos, and my latest story I'm not going to give away the person is somebody who I have literally fangirled since I was in college in the early 2000, who was a part of a huge fraud who was Time Magazine's Woman of the year in 2002, and now we're like BFFs. I'm exaggerating, but literally we're on the phone this week for over an hour and talked two days in a row. And anyway, so there is such power in that tool that I can't even explain it. It's phenomenal.
Leah Wietholter:
So when you reach out to someone, what do you say? Do you have a go-to?
Amanda Jo Erven:
I don't. And I think the people who have go-tos are, I'm going to say wrong. Because you can not have a blanket something you say. You have to personalize it to that person. I'm just going to go ahead and blow my cover here. So Cynthia Cooper, who was the vice president of internal audit at WorldCom during the whole debacle, early 2000s. I listened to a webinar with her and Richard Chambers, the past president of the IIA. I have students that write papers about fraud. So I'm a full-time faculty now. I have three internal audit classes. We often dissect these cases, always have somebody that writes about the WorldCom fraud. And it's especially a great one because internal audit caught it. And that doesn't happen very often. Right? [inaudible 00:11:53].
What's the statistic? 15% of internal audit departments find them. And it's not high enough. But anyway, I watched this webinar and I immediately just messaged her and said, "I just got off your webinar. I love the topic of auditing culture. I've been trying to push this for years. Would just love to connect with you." And it's that personal short, don't tell them your life story. Don't try to sell them something for goodness sake. I did not ask her to join the fraud retreat right then. Right? But it was build the relationship. Actually, I might have, that might be a fib. I might have said, "I have this awesome event and I would die to have you there." But do it in such a genuine way and connect with something they've done. You can't just cold reach out. So a LinkedIn post, Kelly's great at this, "Just saw your opening. I shared it too. If you have any more openings, let me know." And I think it's just, you've got to find that connection with somebody.
Leah Wietholter:
I agree. And I didn't know if I was going to say this or not, but I have one that if I get messages in these veins, my assistant will respond for me. And we have a canned response. So if you're a listener and you're wanting to reach out to me, don't do these two things. And if you've gotten my response, it was my assistant. But first one is how do I become a forensic accountant? What have you done in your career that helped you get here? This whole list of questions where I can tell you saw that I was a forensic accountant and you sent me a whole bunch of questions and you did no research about me.
So there are plenty of people that don't have a lot of content out there, but I have a ton of content. I have a book, a podcast, videos, a website, blog. You can find all kinds of resources from me and you're the same. So do a little research and then ask me a specific question about it. Don't ask me to spoonfeed it to you. You're going to get a response with what I just said from my assistant.
Amanda Jo Erven:
You know what? And I love it. I think I asked you for that at one point. So I have it copied and pasted in my notes because I loved your response so much. I get it too probably about internal audit as much as you or like you do. But you know [inaudible 00:14:25] giveaway, and so this is for anybody who wants to reach out to me, is they call me Amanda. Or, because literally my about says, "Welcome to my page. I go by Jo." And Jo's in quotes. Everybody always asks, "Why don't you just drop Amanda?" And I'm like, "You know what? It's my legal name. My parents gave it to me. I still feel attached to it, but I go by my middle name."
And so, I can tell, because if they even opened my page, the first thing says, "I go by Jo." And so, I know that some people are moving so fast that they don't pay attention to those little things. And I forgive that a lot. Right? I always joke, I'm like, "I answer to Amanda, it's fine." But you start off with not with that feeling like they don't know me. They don't really want me. And I think that it's just my dead giveaway.
Leah Wietholter:
Yes. The other one is, "So tell me what you do in the forensic accounting space." Okay. No. I still might connect with people. If they're CFEs, PIs, whatever, I'm going to connect, but I'm not going to have a conversation over LinkedIn. So it's just something to consider.
Amanda Jo Erven:
And you can tell the people that you really want to connect with and they really want to connect back, because you immediately take it off of LinkedIn. So that's another thing I'd love to say is make that effort. Here's my email. I'd love to continue this conversation out. And those you also know are the real people and the real we had a Zoom quick so we could connect further. And you can tell that people who want to take it that step further.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, I agree. And I think too, LinkedIn is just such a great opportunity to try to get to know people, to maybe get on a podcast, or to be a guest on a podcast, or if you're starting a podcast, but just doing just a little bit of research about the person before you reach out. Yeah, it would just go a long way.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Yep, I agree.
Leah Wietholter:
Okay, we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back.
Speaker 3:
Did you know that the investigation game isn't just for professional continuing education? The investigation Game Education edition is for university teachers to provide their students with a hands-on experience to work with sample evidence, replicating an actual fraud investigation. The games will reinforce the steps to basing the investigation findings on data analysis and best evidence, not opinions. To order the case of the Cashflow fiasco or the case of the man cave for your students, visit workmanforensics.com/tig-educators or check out the link in the show notes.
Leah Wietholter:
Welcome back to my conversation with Jo. So Jo, I have noticed something about your business. You have several different services and all of these services seem to compliment each other and really promote and market the other thing. So first, will you tell us what those services are and then we'll move into the fraud retreat because it's like an extension of this as well.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Yeah, it's a part of my last service, so it's perfect. So I call my business Ace, A-C-E, obviously. Now my son, who I've already mentioned, Benjamin says, so when I started my business almost six years ago, he would've been, what? Six, almost seven. And so he's like, "Mom, why did you name your business after a hardware store?" And I'm like, "Okay, not Ace Hardware." But okay, ACE to me stands for audit, consulting, education. LLC, is my three wings of my business. I couldn't have been more direct in my business title. But I wanted people to know exactly what I did. The only part I don't like is that I didn't stick an eye in front of the A because I am internal audit, obviously. But audit consulting kind of meshed together. I do internal audit consulting. I mean that is really what I do.
The last few years, the more and more I've gotten to be, I'm going to quote in air quotes expert on ethics, but by no means am I an expert, learning every day still. But my passion has shifted from internal audit to ethics and the combination of both. I already mentioned auditing culture is so important to me, but now I'm doing more culture ethics consulting. So that middle part has kind of beefed up a little bit in the last few years, writing ethics policies, helping with ethics blogs, really focusing on how cultures that organizations can be better and how can internal audit, again, audit that, so the connection there. But by far, I always say my favorite wing of my business is education. So I immediately became an adjunct professor when I lost my job or left my job. So I've been teaching at the higher ed level, just started full-time a year ago, so I just had my one year anniversary as a full-time faculty at MSU Denver.
But besides higher ed, got NASBA certified, just like your firm is to give those CPE credits. And like you I was sitting on the opposite side of the table in very, very boring CPE trainings for 20 years, almost 20 years. And so it's how can I make that more fun and engaging. And specifically ethics, everybody needs that. You've got your interactive investigation game. You had the same idea I did, really, which I'm going to say the whole fun and the conference thing led me to create my own conference, which we keep talking about the fraud retreat. It's funny, I always never fail when I start promoting the fraud retreat. They're like, "Oh, are you going to teach us how to do fraud?" No, of course not. I'm going to teach you how to catch fraud. Or we are. Two-day event, my biggest education event every year, always in Denver, 16 CPE, you get your four hours in ethics. The rest is specialized knowledge fraud, some personal development some years we've done.
Just an amazing group of people that want to come to this conference. And I think, Leah, you can attest to that. But it's not your normal, that's why I called it a retreat. I wanted it to really feel like a networking, but a personal networking. The speakers stay. They're there the whole conference. They don't just come and leave. And they're there to answer questions. And all the attendees, some of the attendees have become speakers. Right? Because they want to develop themselves. And so, it's become this just learning two days, and growing two-day event. Anyway, I'm just like, every time every year I'm like, "Ooh, it's going to be even better. It's going to be even better." But this year is going to be epic. I just assume it's going to be great. With Cynthia Cooper agreeing to open day two, you're not going to want to miss it. It's going to be awesome.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, it is just a unique experience for anybody who hasn't been there. And last year you had around a hundred attendees. Are you going to keep it around that? Are you going to-
Amanda Jo Erven:
Last year we capped it a hundred. I'm going to try to squeeze in 120. I think we're going to sell out. I'm pretty confident we're going to sell out again. I always have about 20 speakers for the two days, which people are like, oh my god, that's crazy. But I want it to be content heavy and good content heavy. So we do 50-minute sessions, maybe 75. If you're really great, I'll give you a 100. Like Leah, she was stuck with doing a hundred. But I want a variety of topics. And so I have about 20 speakers, so that takes up 20 spots. So if I can get it to where even we've got the 20 speakers and a hundred guests this year, or even 120 attendees and my 20 speakers are just lingering in the back of the room, I don't want it to feel so squished. And I never want it to feel like a big old fraud conference.
Nothing against the ACFE. They do great. I love their global 3000 people conferences, but obviously I'm a one woman shop. This is all I can handle. Plus I want it to feel the way I intended it to feel. I don't want it to be like that. But yeah, so long answer for 120 people. First 120 are in.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. I mean the point of this is to be able to network and then it's kind of cool because the same people keep coming back. So then we get to have this little reunion with our friends, but then meet more people and [inaudible 00:23:14] the group bigger.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Relationship building. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We've moved off LinkedIn into this one time a year vacation for fraud friends. That's how I look at it now. People just love it. The hotel, I got them to do two days before the retreat, two days after again for the same rate because I know people have met people even in Denver that they want to come and visit now and stay. And so, I love that about it. And one more plug that I just want to make sure I mention because I think this is important. It is a fraud retreat, but obviously my background's internal audit people like you and Kelly, you kind of attract the fraud investigators, the forensic accountants. It's a great combination. It's not just all one type of person in one career. We have small business owners, we have fraud litigators, expert witnesses.
We have something for everybody that even touches fraud. Whether you're an audit, you're just a CPA, an accountant. I've got accounting firms that are sending people. So it's just a great combo. I think it's not your typical a meeting that only has internal auditors or something like that. So you definitely are going to learn from attendees too at your table. And this year, day one is going to be all about fraud, and day two is going to be all about culture. So we're kind of expanding to where last year a lot of the topics became all these frauds are taking place because of a toxic culture. So we're really going to focus on what that means on day two, which I think is going to be a big change and good change for this year.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah, that's great. The networking events like this I think are so important. I was at a very small event in Oklahoma a few months ago, and I didn't have to speak at that one actually. I got to just attend the whole day. I love that. But there were several people at the conference who just were asking such great questions and they were quite a bit younger than me. And I just thought to myself as I was hearing these questions, and so I'd kind of talk to them in between in the breaks and stuff, just kind of get their vibe. But by the end of the day I was like, "Hey, if you're ever wanting to do this full time, what this conference was about, we need to connect." Because I could hear their questions and I could see how they were thinking.
And I thought, I think we have a lot in common, and these are three people that I probably, I don't know that I would've met them any other way. Again, quite a bit younger, earlier in their career. So they're not necessarily having conversations like you and me right now. And so I think it's really important to show up to those in-person events.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Or on LinkedIn like we talked about. A lot of my college students, they have not learned the power of LinkedIn yet. When you're in college, you're still networking in person, at least post-pandemic we are again. I'm the accounting student organization faculty advisor, and I'm like, "How do we get more students at our meetings?" Because of the power of in-person networking. And so, while LinkedIn is great, that's how we started this conversation. Continuing it outside is what makes it stick. And so, I think that's the key.
Leah Wietholter:
So as a business owner, how do you approach in-person networking? Do you have any strategies that you implement? Honestly, you're just one of the friendliest people I know, so I feel like maybe you don't even think about it. You just walk in and-
Amanda Jo Erven:
No, I'm not. I'm actually really shy. Isn't that funny? I have told you this too, Leah-
Leah Wietholter:
I know and I shake my head.
Amanda Jo Erven:
[inaudible 00:27:11] global conference, I am a wallflower. I'm like, this is so overwhelming. There's so many people. What helps me is, of course, speaking at an event and then people come up to you. And I love that. I am not good at just breaking into people's conversations or introducing myself. So I think that to me is the power of the role that I have made for myself. It matches what I need from a networking perspective. So think about that. If you're kind of a really shy person, make yourself go out of your box and do a training on something you're passionate about for 50 minutes because then people come up to you. That's true, that enjoyed it. And then it happens naturally. I'm all about organic networking. That sounds so crazy, but do it how it helps you. Figure out how it helps you. And that's me. Right? I will not go up to people. So totally honest. I have implemented ways that I get people to approach me. And then I'm perfectly comfortable with the conversation. So yeah, think about what you're comfortable with.
Leah Wietholter:
That's a really good strategy. I remember this was pre-pandemic. It's weird how we have to define this. Pre-pandemic, whenever I started my business 13 years ago, I was just going to any networking event. I didn't network when I was in public accounting. So I mean I was starting with nothing. And so, I went to all kinds of networking things and have lots of opinions on networking groups. But I would try to see, do I recognize someone in there and then start with that person and then they will typically introduce you to somebody else.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Yes, great.
Leah Wietholter:
And then I really just set it as can I have a decent, I don't even have to set it as a good or a great conversation, but can I talk to one person that I don't know, just meet one person. And it doesn't even have to be an awesome conversation. We could just end up talking about how we want to learn snowboarding. Because it can just be a relationship building thing. Well, then I would go to another event and the person I talked about snowboarding with, they were there. So then maybe that time we talked about business. Not try to force it.
Amanda Jo Erven:
I know exactly. Not force it. And I know we're short on time, but one more tip, bring a friend. Invite somebody. Connect with somebody you see is going on LinkedIn and just have a few words. And I think that helps. Right?
Leah Wietholter:
I do too.
Amanda Jo Erven:
For instance, Kelly Paxton and I on LinkedIn, pre-meeting at this giant influence conference with a ton of national speakers, intimidating conference. Right? I am totally a fly on the wall. But knowing I was going to see Kelly there, and knowing we were going to meet and just have that comfort, build that in for yourself, invite a friend or just know you're going to have a buddy because then the two of you can tackle networking together. And I think that's super helpful.
Leah Wietholter:
That also makes me think of this, I think because I think I've said this on the podcast before that when I was in high school, I saw that the FBI agent required great interpersonal communication skills. And I told my mom like, oh my gosh, I can probably do everything except that. And so my mom said, well, you need to practice. So every job I had, I made sure I was talking to people, forcing myself to talk to people. But I think what's really, really valuable is if you can go into a networking situation and just listen for something that person says that you have in common and then just go from there.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Absolutely.
Leah Wietholter:
We don't have to connect on everything, but just there's a comedian podcast, I listen to, Nate Land podcast and they like asking good questions to start a conversation. So they were batting around, "How do you ask someone how's your year going? Or how's your year so far?" Starting a conversation like that, especially at the beginning of the year, "Are you looking forward to this year?" And then they might say something that they're going to do, and I'm going to bring up snowboarding again where I'm headed after this call. But they might say, "Oh yeah, well I'm going to learn snowboarding this year." "Oh my goodness, me too." And then you're off to the races.
Amanda Jo Erven:
That one connection. Yeah, absolutely.
Leah Wietholter:
I love it. And as long as you're not trying to, I don't think that you should look for closing a sale. That is not the appropriate forum. It's just about building the network.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Yep, absolutely.
Leah Wietholter:
Okay, so this last area that I wanted to make sure to talk about is that I think that both of us, and I didn't even think about this similarity till I was putting this outline together, but both of us, and maybe for the reasons we've already talked about, we look for creative ways to network that doesn't feel like traditional networking
Amanda Jo Erven:
Or like salesy, like you said. Yes,
Leah Wietholter:
It's more organic. It's more about learn about me, how I can help you, but also I'm going to learn about people at the same time to see how I can make my services serve them better. So I'm curious, what are some of yours, or at least one of your areas that, you kind of mentioned doing presentations, but how do you turn that into marketing for your firm?
Amanda Jo Erven:
I am going to provide all your listeners with my five steps to stay connected after a presentation, which I think you can use and tailor to even if you're not doing a presentation, if that makes sense. Maybe it really is. You are going to see when I tell you the steps, it is helpful if you're in front of an audience to start, but I think there's little pieces of it maybe that you could pick out and personally use, especially towards the end to create that personal relationship. So really my tips start with you've got to ask for feedback after whatever you do. And I write about feedback in my books. I think it's important for internal auditors to get feedback. I know you're an auditor and you don't think anybody likes you, but you still have to let them audit you at some point and say, "You need to incorporate this or do that." And so, I always ask for feedback.
Well, within that feedback process, after a presentation or a training, I create a survey. It's got three questions and literally it's, "How did you like this? One to five stars." I put a box that's like, if you loved it, add a testimonial if you want. Because then I can copy and paste onto my website. I can copy and paste into a LinkedIn recommendation and say, Hey, you said this and it meant the world to me. Would you just copy and paste onto LinkedIn? The key is make it easy for them, right? And the second question I ask is, "Do you want the resources I talked about?" I don't like to give away my slides in advance because it gives away our story. And so it is the way that they can get, because you always get that question, "Can I have the slides?"
I don't care about sharing my slides, but what instead I put together is a resources email that literally I can hit send, I can copy everybody's email that said yes into a BCC, hit send all at once. I've got it prepared. But guess what they can do after that? And this is the kicker. They respond to you personally and say, "Thank you. I loved the session. This resonated with me. This doesn't." I can't tell you how many emails I get after I click send on that email. And it's like people do ask me, "Why don't you automate all that?" They do your survey and then it automatically sends a link to your website with all your resources. And I'm like, "Because it's unpersonal." It is not them getting an email from your email in their inbox that they then are likely to respond to.
And so that's my big tip on how to stay connected after. The third question I ask is if you want to stay connected permanently. So I have a CPE book club and if they want to know what I'm doing a couple times a year, that's how I email people about the fraud retreat or any other webinars I'm doing. I literally say in there, I email you three to four times a year. I'm terrible at mass emails, but do you want on that list? And so that's their opportunity to say yes or no. That's your ultimate permanent connection. That's a little less touch points. But the middle question gets you that immediate personal after a presentation, it's fresh on their mind, like connection with somebody. And then that's what sticks to me. I've got it in five steps. So I'll share that document [inaudible 00:36:10].
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. I love that. Presentations were really key in me starting my business. And I actually started, I was not a good speaker and I didn't enjoy it at all. So I started by doing presentations for my alma mater.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Start where you're comfortable.
Leah Wietholter:
Whenever they would ask.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Yeah, I tell you though, it's funny. You know that saying you're never famous in your hometown. I swear doing a Denver IIA presentation is the hardest for me, because it's your peers and people you've been in internal audit with for 18 years. But I agree with you, get out of your box, do what's comfortable, even if it is a little uncomfortable and it's so helpful. And on your note on that's how you started your business, people will respond to me and be like, will you come do that training for my company? Will you come in and train my 350 internal auditors? They hear that presentation and then that's your in to get further jobs. That's the lead generator, right? And it's because you sent them that email, I think, and it's not just some automated thing that's happening. They know you're taking the time to do that. So it's definitely gotten me consulting business and further training business too. Yeah,
Leah Wietholter:
I think just anytime we're willing to share information, whether that's through a presentation or sometimes, sometimes I just have people that'll say, Hey, my kid's interested in forensic accounting. Can you talk to them? My time's really limited. So I'll say, "Hey, I've got this online game, I'd be happy to share it with you." And if they really like it, maybe they'll know it's for them. Just being able to have those conversations to share those things. Or whenever a couple clients this last week, new clients, I was talking to them and they were asking about what are your reports going to look like? What does this process look like? And I said, "Well, can I just send you a copy of my book?" So being able to send those things, that just goes a long way. And although that was further in the sales pipeline, it wasn't necessarily lead generating. It just makes a big difference. If anyone calls my practice and they are an attorney or they schedule an appointment, we've talked, you don't even have to hire me. You're getting a book. Right? Because that's going to be there.
Amanda Jo Erven:
I call my books my glorified business cards, but they are. If you want to know about me and my thoughts, we took the time to write them down that for a reason. And to me, what you're talking about is how we pay it forward too. And that's one of my biggest, I call them in my second book about choices, it's the ownership choice. We all might not own our jobs or own our businesses like Leah and I do, but you can act like an owner and you can pay it forward like an owner that's just about sharing a resource. If you're an internal auditor listening to this, it's sharing a resource that you helped another department with the current department's audit that you're on.
It is just about connecting people and providing whatever you can. And as a speaker, I know there's a lot of speakers out there that just hoard their information. It's like, this is my IP and I don't give it away. And admittedly, I used to be like that. I know Kelly said that too, but now we're like, "Why were we like that?" This is how we pay it forward. We want everybody to know the best ways to do stuff. [inaudible 00:39:59].
Leah Wietholter:
And I think that there's always areas too where you can give very valuable information away without giving away all your trade secrets.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Absolutely.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. If someone is reading the Data Sleuth book and they create copies of, you're not supposed to by the way, you're not supposed to take my exact things. Those are copywritten. And use them with clients. But also if they're doing that, we're already on Data Sleuth like 3.0. Right? We're going to keep moving forward. And so, there's things that we can share and things that can help somebody else. And then I know Trent Russell, he provides a lot of data analytics, free downloads in Excel, but he brands them. So every time I'm going to open that up, I'm going to see that. And so that was one of the things I was wanting to do in this podcast season with all of our guests, is to give them an opportunity to put something branded to demonstrate what we're talking about. And so I appreciate you providing that download.
Amanda Jo Erven:
I'll my brand on it, even though everybody can, yeah, it has nothing to do with me. Right? It's just a process I think that's great.
Leah Wietholter:
Yeah. But it came from you, so make sure you put that brand on there. Yeah. So that download will be available on our downloads page for the podcast. And just so our listeners know, we're not just putting all of these downloads on the first episode, so you're going to have to acquire them over time, but I'll give more information about how to download those later. Okay. Jo, if our listeners do you want to connect with you, this may seem super obvious, what's the best way to do so?
Amanda Jo Erven:
LinkedIn. No.
Leah Wietholter:
That's right.
Amanda Jo Erven:
LinkedIn for sure. No, outside, so LinkedIn it is Amanda Jo Erven. So Jo is in quotes, so you could find me pretty easy on there. My website is auditconsultingeducation.com. I know it's a mouthful. And my email, though, I always say is really short at the beginning. It's just Jo, J-O jo@auditconsultingeducation.com. So please feel free. I am an email person, right? Leah knows I am on email all the time. It's probably a bad thing, but I love getting personal emails from people with your stories or your questions. So just, yeah, email, LinkedIn message, whatever, just not one of those canned LinkedIn messages. Right?
Leah Wietholter:
That's right.
Amanda Jo Erven:
You have to say, "I heard you on Leah's podcast so I know."
Leah Wietholter:
Connect, connect. Well, that's great. And we'll make sure we include all of that in the show notes. Jo, thanks so much for joining me today. This was great.
Amanda Jo Erven:
Thanks. I love being here.
Leah Wietholter:
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Data Sleuth Podcast. The resources discussed in today's episode are available at datasleuthpodcast.com. Also available in the show notes. If you have any questions you would like answered in the Q&A episode of this season, make sure to send them to podcast@workmanforensics.com or the Workman Forensics YouTube page, or the Workman Forensics LinkedIn page. The Data Sleuth Podcast is a production of Workman Forensics. Thank you for listening.