Episode 44: Surveillance and Counterfeit Goods Investigations with Scott Fulmer
This week, Leah chats with Scott Fulmer about surveillance techniques and counterfeit goods investigations. If you've ever wanted to learn more about either, you will not want to miss this episode and opportunity to learn from one of the best!
Scott Fulmer is a 30-year veteran Utah private investigator and the principal at Intermountain PI, based in Salt Lake City. He hosts the Intermountain PI Podcast each Tuesday and is author of the true crime memoir, Confessions of a Private Eye, available on Amazon. Scott is a decorated combat veteran of the Gulf War and a father of three. He and his wife Valerie live somewhere along the Wasatch Front near Salt Lake City.
Connect with Scott:
Website: www.intermountainpi.com
Podcast: www.intermountainpi.com/blog
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Pr...
LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-ful...
Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/intermountainpi
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Transcript of Episode 44:
Leah Wietholter (00:00):
Welcome to the investigation game podcast brought to you by Workman forensics. Welcome to the investigation game podcast. I'm Leah Wietholter, CEO of Workman, forensics, and Tulsa, Oklahoma. Joining me today is Scott Fulmer. Scott is a 30 year veteran, Utah private investigator and the principal at inner mountain PI based in salt Lake city. He hosts the inner mountain pie podcast each Tuesday and is author of the true crime memoir confessions of a private eye. Scott is a decorated combat veteran of the Gulf war and father of three. He and his wife, Valerie lived near salt Lake city. Scott, thanks for joining me.
Scott Fulmer (00:40):
It was my pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Leah Wietholter (00:42):
We have a lot of listeners that listen to this podcast who are wanting to get into some sort of investigation field. What was your path to becoming a private investigator?
Scott Fulmer (00:51):
Well, I mean, obviously when I was a young boy, I read the Hardy boys and Sherlock Holmes. And so I was intrigued by, uh, being a detective. It was something I always wanted to do. And when I was 16, my uncle was a private investigator and he brought me on a couple of surveillances that he went on. And so I was pretty much hooked at that point. And, but it wasn't until college. I was working on a degree in criminal justice. And if you think back to many moons ago, when there were actually ads for jobs in the newspaper and people used it in the newspaper, uh, I saw an ad for a private investigator and it asked the applicants to send in a resume. And of course, I, I didn't have a resume other than being a short order cook and that wasn't going to cut it. So I just wrote the guy a letter said, Hey, I have no experience. But, uh, that means I haven't learned to do things the wrong way and you can teach me the right way. And he pretty much, uh, hired me. And so that was back in the mid nineties. And, uh, I began working for, uh, one of the largest private investigation firms in Texas at that time doing primarily workers' comp and insurance defense. And so I've been doing that ever since. And about 2006, I started out on my own.
Leah Wietholter (02:04):
Well, that's awesome. I love the letter part like that. You haven't learned anything like that's just so creative and I think that's so necessary to being a private investigator and especially, you know, now that you're on your own, I feel like since going out on my own, that's really challenged. Like, okay, this does not seem like a favorable situation, but how can I be creative and, you know, make it, you know, when somebody says, do you have specific experience doing X? And my response is, well in these kinds of cases, this is how we handle that, you know? So I feel like I've just gotten better at doing that. I think it's just a great skill to have when you work for yourself or trying to solve problems on behalf of a client. So speaking of your current practice, what is your current practice look like now? Like what types of cases do you work or do you have a specialty
Scott Fulmer (02:55):
I'm based in salt Lake city? Uh, I cover all of Utah and I do find myself going up to Idaho, Wyoming and into Western Colorado as well, where I'm also licensed, but I specialize in insurance, defense, corporate investigations and domestic investigations. And I pretty much, uh, I do what I enjoy and that's surveillance, which is, uh, a factor in all three of those types of investigations.
Leah Wietholter (03:23):
All right. So I really wanted to talk to you today about surveillance. We haven't had anybody on to really get into the details of surveillance. And so I just wanted to start with what types of information are you looking to gather when conducting surveillance? And you mentioned all of these different types of cases where you do surveillance and so where it kind of intersects with like forensic accounting and where we've used it before is on domestic disputes. But I am interested in the other areas as well, but particularly what types of information are you looking together when conducting surveillance into domestic disputes?
Scott Fulmer (03:59):
So, yeah, so with domestic disputes, it depends on what type, uh, you may have a cohabitation where you're trying to prove that, uh, someone who is receiving alimony is living with another individual, which would be grounds for, uh, either a dismissal of the alimony or a reduction in the alimony. And so we're going to conduct surveillance to, to show that the individual is, you know, basically living with someone in a, what they call a spouse like relationship. Another is a lot of the domestic stuff can end up, can also kind of turn into a workers' comp aspect. I had a woman that, that I had done the surveillance on several times and just did not get any activity from her at all. She was, uh, she had had a back injury and, uh, didn't seem to be going anywhere, didn't seem to be doing anything.
Scott Fulmer (04:49):
And so I did a trash poll where we pulled her trash and, uh, in looking through the trash, I found some notes that indicated that she was going to meet with, uh, a friend of hers and they were going to go to an amusement park. And so I went and bought my ticket because I know what day they were going to be there, which is really nice. It doesn't, it doesn't happen like that in the movies. And so we followed her to the amusement park and she proceeded to, to ride almost every roller coaster they had. And so we were able to grab really good video of that. Another one in the domestic category would be infidelity, which is exactly what everybody suspects, you know, thinks about when they think about what private investigators do. And, um, I had, uh, a man that was allegedly having an affair with a yoga instructor. So I ended up following her and him, and we finally got them where they were engaged in, uh, intimate relations behind the home Depot. And so we got video of that. And so essentially what we're trying to do is we're trying to, you know, our client hires us because they have a suspicion we conduct surveillance to find out if their suspicions are true or not.
Leah Wietholter (05:54):
Interesting. So you mentioned something in there about doing a trash poll. So I'm curious, cause I I've tried to research this for Oklahoma before, because it seemed like for private investigators, at least that I knew in Oklahoma that it's kind of like, yeah, you can do it, but it's kind of in the gray area. How, what is it like for you in the areas you practice to do?
Scott Fulmer (06:17):
Well, one of the things about the West is it's still kind of the wild West out here. If you go out into a Wyoming and Utah and Idaho, these States out here, people's attitudes are pretty libertarian about things you're kind of live and let live, they all have concealed gun permits and things like that. So there's a lot more freedom, I guess, is what I'm trying to say with trash pools. There's a Supreme court case. I think it's California vs. Greenwood. That basically say to if the trash is on, on the outside of the property, then it's basically fair game. And there are condominiums and neighborhoods that have, or cities that have a specific municipal rules that don't allow it, you know? So it just really depends on where the trash is and, and I don't do it all the time, but I've done it for corporate investigations. I've done it for, uh, domestic investigations and it can, it's kind of a nasty business cause you, you, you know, you find out what allows the appetite people have and, and, uh, their prescriptions, all kinds of information.
Leah Wietholter (07:15):
Yeah. As far as like corporate investigations go, do you find yourself doing more or less or about the same? I don't know why I'm like so fascinated with trash pools on this episode right now, but that there's less paper because of things being digital, like have you noticed
Scott Fulmer (07:31):
It really depends again on the type of case. Uh, and it's okay to be fascinated by trash poles. Just make sure you slap on the old latex gloves. Cause it's, it's a nasty business. I had one, uh, I had one a couple of years ago and I am seeing more primarily from franchisees that are, that are violating their, their franchise agreement. So I've, I've had a couple of these, uh, just recently where, uh, large companies that franchise their business out have a franchisee that is essentially going off the reservation, they're doing what they want, they're breaking the franchise agreement. And so I, I w I went up and got inside a couple of dumpsters and, uh, and gathered a bunch of paperwork that had been thrown away. Yeah. You would think that people would, would shred things and, and they're, you know, more of a digital path and less actual paper, but this particular business, uh, sold products and they had ordered forms in the tray. I mean, I, I gathered, ended up gathering about two big boxes of information showing that they were violating their franchise agreement. So yeah, trash pools are not necessary all the time, but when they are, they work really well.
Leah Wietholter (08:42):
Yeah. That's, uh, I have wanted to do a couple. I think it was when I was working in public accounting, we teamed up with a CFE PAI on a couple of cases and I, that he went and did a dumpster dive trash pool whenever you want to call it. And I was like, what? You did this without me. I was so sad. I don't care. I don't care if it's gross. Like there's good information. Because when I worked for the Bureau, they'd take me along on white collar search warrants because I would dig through everything, you know, like really meticulously. So anyway, I don't remember if it was fruitful or not. They may have found something. I don't remember. I wasn't in charge of the case. I don't remember that, but, okay. So let's go back to surveillance where, and when to surveillance look like the movies and where, or when does it not?
Scott Fulmer (09:30):
Well, I would say most of the time, it does not. Uh, I wish I did, but when you're on surveillance, uh, I mean, sometimes the weather is perfect, but a lot of times it's either really, really hot or it's really, really cold. And you never see anybody on surveillance in the movies sweating. For some reason, I, they always look like they're having a great time. The other thing is in real life, it requires a tremendous amount of patience. So there was lots of waiting, whereas in the movies, you know, they get on surveillance and the bad guys take off five minutes later, which, I mean, that does happen in real life too, but that's kind of rare. And then, uh, the other thing I noticed in the movies, when they're following someone on, on a moving surveillance, they're pretty much right behind him. And, you know, you can't do that without being burned. So you have to give people distance.
Leah Wietholter (10:18):
Okay. So I've done one, I think when I wasn't, you know, with the FBI, like one as PI and I was paranoid the entire time that I was going to be made at like, uh, either my car in the neighborhood or me in the neighborhood. And I feel like I really over-thought it. So do you have any tips for somebody who might be starting? I mean, we just don't do them anymore, but, um, and part of it was because of that,
Scott Fulmer (10:45):
I think you are right on track when you're brand new to surveillance. Of course you do think everybody's looking at you and watching you, you think you're the guy that you're following. Uh, you know, he's got to know him right behind him, really in terms of tips, the best way to learn surveillance. And, uh, others would probably disagree with this, but for me, the best way to learn was to, was the actual doing the practical application. And you're going to make mistakes. And after you make that mistake, you kind of conduct a little after action report with yourself and say, okay, what did I do wrong? What can I do differently? I had a case where I had to follow an elderly couple to a hospital appointment and back, and was younger at the time. And I guess a little cocky about my abilities. And I ended up parking right next to their house, really, really close, which was stupid in retrospect.
Scott Fulmer (11:37):
And they both got in their car and they drove and I followed them. I gave him a good amount of distance. And, and of course, as soon as they got to the hospital in park, they got out of their car and they looked at me in my direction and they called security and the little security guy came over and they started pointing at my, so I thought, well, this isn't good. So they went into their appointment and then I, I went back and switched cars and told myself just because these people are elderly does not necessarily mean that they're not alert. And so I had to be a lot more careful. So when they came out of their appointment, of course, they were escorted by security and they were looking all over the place for me. And I was right in front of them in a different vehicle because they were looking for my older vehicle or the different vehicles. And I ended up falling home after that. So it wasn't an eventful surveillance in terms of evidence, but, uh, it was something I learned that, you know, you just, you have to assume that the person you're following knows what they're doing and, and you, you just can't treat them like they're not, not up with what's what's happening at the time.
Leah Wietholter (12:35):
Yeah. I remember, I mean, this has probably been eight, nine, 10 years ago, but it was like a kind of intellectual property, non non-compete type situation. And so they thought he was like stealing clients and stuff. And so there were just a few things I needed to see in his neighborhood. I don't remember why, but I just remember thinking if he's doing what they say he's doing, like, how paranoid is this guy where he's going to be looking for somebody like me? Of course. So I remember I got a couple of friends and I said, I can't tell you what we're doing, but we need to go walk this neighborhood. And, uh, if I stopped to do anything, you need to just keep walking, I'll catch up. Cause I was really, really paranoid. I also lost him on his way to work. So that leads me to another question I had for you whenever you're following and doing a moving surveillance. Do you have other people that you team up with for that or do you do it by yourself? Because I lost him. I was by myself. I had to call in some retired FBI people to help me the next day.
Scott Fulmer (13:35):
Well, I mean, and losing people on surveillance and that happens. So if a peer who you speak with, if you talk to a private investigator that says, Oh, I've never lost anyone there, they're probably either brand new or they're lying. Yeah. So when I do surveillance, it really depends on the budget and what the client wants to wants to do what their objectives are and how difficult, for example, if it's the rural surveillance or if someone's, you know, coming in from out of town and they're going to go to a hotel and, you know, we really gotta be on them, but typically it's just a one person surveillance every once in a while, we'll use two people. I do envy the FBI because they'll have five or six folks conducting surveillance. They'll have aviation support, things like that. I do use trackers, GPS trackers, and that does make it easier, but I cannot legally use those in all types of cases. Yeah. So, I mean, uh, you know, you are going to lose people and, and, uh, what I say, it's better to lose them and come back into the day than to get burned.
Leah Wietholter (14:30):
Yeah. And that makes sense. And that actually makes me feel a lot better for losing him, uh, that first day. But, uh, and we ended up getting some decent evidence and it was fun to do that with the retired FBI agent and a retired crime scene investigator from our state Bureau. But it definitely made it like faster to get what we needed as opposed to me losing him day. Yeah. And when you,
Scott Fulmer (14:52):
When you do surveillance, you really have to be thinking ahead, uh, you, you basically have to be looking ahead of the, of the, of your subject. Are they going to make that light? Are they going to turn right? Are they going to turn left? You know, everyone saw somebody do like turns at the last minute into a convenience store and you can't follow them in just like they did, or it becomes obvious you have to pass them up and then kind of turn around and come back. So it's not easy.
Leah Wietholter (15:15):
No, it's not. I am kind of curious. I mean, after that experience, I thought, I feel like I can find data other places where I don't necessarily need to do surveillance, which just our work to, it's just typically easier to, if we have a domestic issue, it would be much more cost-effective and efficient for our, for even our schedule to just team up with another PI. That that's their thing. Obviously, anytime it's somebody's specialty, it just is better. But for me then it turned to more OSAP and social media investigation. So I'm curious, have you noticed any changes in maybe the volume or the types of requests for surveillance with open source intelligence and social media investigations becoming more popular?
Scott Fulmer (15:57):
So I have noticed some changes in what it's been is you have clients that are doing their homework, so they are purchasing the, you know, 1999 background check online, they're doing a deep dive or what they believe is a deep dive into Facebook and Instagram. And so they come to you with a bunch of information they already know, and it's good for a couple of reasons. One, uh, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. So you already have some good data on, on your subject, but on the downside, they're expectations are increased because they were able to find all this information already on their own, and they're not licensed, they're not a private investigator. And so they expect you to, you know, provide a miracle or pull, you know, pull a rabbit out of a hat. I did have a case that was like that.
Scott Fulmer (16:43):
And, uh, the client told me that, you know, this woman, we found her on, uh, on Facebook and she, this was actually for a, uh, a business, uh, workers' comp deal. And, uh, she had a hand injury and they learned that she was in a bowling league. And so that made it easier for me. I just, I just showed up at the bowling alley when she had her, uh, her league and just obtained video. I just sat there at a diet Dr. Pepper and watched her watch her bowl for, uh, for a couple of hours while I, uh, obtained covert video of her. So, yeah, and the, in a roundabout way, it's, it's made things harder to some extent, but easier as well, if that makes any sense.
Leah Wietholter (17:27):
It does. I hadn't thought about how that could kind of just help narrow down how much surveillance you even need to do, like having more specific locations and definitely being more cost-effective for the client, even though that might be fewer hours for a PI, but
Scott Fulmer (17:42):
I always think that there's going to be a need for boots on the ground. You know, we have cameras now. I was out on a scene investigation yesterday and there's those ring cameras and nest doorbell cameras. And they, you know, not only help you with, with seeing who's at your door, but they have been shown to, uh, record accidents that happen on the street. And that's, that's what I was looking for. So there's all those. And, uh, it just, uh, there's still gonna be a need for someone to go out and follow. And unless we live in the matrix, which I don't know if that's true or not, but there's always going to be needed for a private investor to be out there gathering evidence.
Leah Wietholter (18:20):
Yeah. I completely agree, because there are some times when, even in our own investigations, we'll get to a certain point with the data. And then it's like, what do we do now? And just like, when you had me on your podcast, I talked about like, just because of budget constraints, I, you know, decided to just show up at this subject's house with a retired FBI agent and interview them. And so sometimes I, I have to remind my team and sometimes even myself, we just need to get out and talk to people. And so that's kind of our version of that, even though we don't do surveillance, but I do have a question related to first of all, in the places where you're practicing. Are you a one party consent state for recording? Yes. Okay. All of the areas where you're licensed and then do you want to maybe explain that? Just, yeah.
Scott Fulmer (19:08):
So when you record, I mean, and basically in the U S you have a one party consent States and two party consent States, and there are some, a little gray areas and a few other States basically means that if you're recording audio between yourself and someone else, as long as one party gives consent to the recording, then you can do it. So if you are recording an individual and you know that you're, you're giving consent, that's fine. Other States, like I believe Massachusetts is a two party consent state. So if you're going to leave, you're going to take a recording between two individuals. Both people have to give their consent.
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Scott Fulmer (21:52):
Yeah. I mean, a lot of them and the opposite is also true. I've had surveillances in rural areas or surveillances where, uh, it's just obvious that it's not, it's kind of a waste of money waste of time, but to answer your question, it would be in, in, in situations where we can provide the evidence and it can only really be provided by surveillance. For example, I had a case where it was a workers' comp case where a gentleman was at bar back. He worked at a bar and he had, he had injured his back and the client had heard that he was working still, clients hear all kinds of things. And sometimes it's true. Sometimes it's not true in this case, it was, I actually pretext him and found out that he was working at a restaurant on the river walk in San Antonio, and he was a bar back there.
Scott Fulmer (22:43):
And so I took my wife and we went downtown and we had a lovely, uh, Mexican food dinner right there on the, on the Riverwalk with the pigeons and everything. And we saw him there at the bar back in the, you know, for your listeners that may not know what a bar back is a bar back, pretty much as the, an assistant to the bartender and what he, what he or she does is he constantly loads ice, big con tubs of ice for the bartender. He brings, brings glasses, clean glasses back, he bins over into coolers, pulls out beer, takes the top off. So it's a very physical job. It's a very physical job. And so I had a video camera and this was, uh, back before covert cameras are really good, like they are now in small and digital. And so I had an, uh, a regular video camera sitting on the, uh, on the table where we having dinner and I just pointed it in his direction and hit record. The good thing is that, you know, San Antonio, as you know, especially in the Riverwalk, it's full of tourists. And so I looked like just anybody else sitting there with a video camera having dinner. And so I was able to prove to the client that he was working. So that's an example of how surveillance is very effective and, uh, really is the only option for getting the evidence that you need.
Leah Wietholter (24:02):
Yeah, for sure. That is a, that's a perfect example. I can definitely see that. I could see it being really helpful on like child custody cases too. Or I had a, there was one that I really wanted her to let us help connect her to a PI to do surveillance because we could prove with data that her child's dad was telling the court, he made $17,000 a year in this lawn business, but we looked at how he was living and some data behind that. And it was closer to like a hundred thousand dollars a year. And so I had thought, Oh, maybe we can set this client up to like, have some surveillance done to prove that, uh, and just based on what he was spending money on and also his Facebook and things like that. My analyst at the time said, I think he's a weed dealer.
Leah Wietholter (24:48):
And this is before Oklahoma made medical marijuana legal. And so I was like, Oh, you know, so I'm, I'm calling the client ready to tell her, you know, this is how much we think he's making a year and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I just thought, you know, I'm just going to ask her, is it is your child's data we dealer. And she goes, Oh yeah, he is. So unfortunately we didn't get to connect her and like include the surveillance and stuff. Cause she already knew, Oh yeah, he deals weed. I'm like, how did I not ask that at the beginning?
Scott Fulmer (25:15):
Yeah. Sometimes you just have to ask the right questions. That's funny. I had a case that actually had to do with a, a distributor of pot and pot products in Colorado because as you know, cannabis is legal in Colorado and I had a woman, one of the employees there who slipped and fell and broke her leg, uh, just horsing around inside the, inside the place where she worked. So I went and did the investigation, but the interesting thing was I got a tour of the, of the whole pot plant, so to speak. And it was pretty interesting. I mean, they had lab guys they're pulling the THC or whatever it is out of the, out of the plant and, and, uh, they had brownies and they had a huge distribution chain and it was something else.
Leah Wietholter (25:56):
Yes, it is quite the, I mean, just the production and industry and it's picking up around here and stuff too. It's very interesting. Okay. So I learned about your work through your podcast and also your LinkedIn content and your pictures on Twitter of just some amazing scenery. I've just got to tell you, you're where you're doing surveillance. Sometimes I'm like, wow, that must be amazing to look out your window or, you know, and see mountains. And it's just beautiful. Anyway, one day I saw that you posted about counterfeit goods. And so I'm curious, do you investigate those allegations of counterfeit goods? How do these investigations?
Scott Fulmer (26:31):
I do. And a lot of these start out from companies that, you know, as I previously mentioned, have franchisees that are doing things you're not supposed to do these same companies also have counterfeit goods. A lot of these, I'm not an expert on it by any means, but I, I know within my realm of what I've, what I've done, a lot of these products are, are produced in China and they're rip offs. They look like the real thing for the most part. And so for example, I had one that was, uh, I don't know if you've ever seen this, but occasionally you'll see on street corners in the summertime, these little tents where they're selling tennis shoes and they have boxes and boxes of tennis shoes on, on these tables. And that was one of the, uh, cases that I worked on the client basically was a manufacturer.
Scott Fulmer (27:15):
I was actually a law firm that worked for the manufacturer of a well-known tennis shoe product among other things that they, that they manufactured. And they had these counterfeit shoes that popped up on street corners. And they'd be there for about two or three days or for, you know, for the weekend, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then they were gone. And so we had to go in and first we would observe and, you know, obtain video of customers coming and going people buying tennis shoes and whatnot. And I remember doing that and it was like, this was in Texas and it was like the, I think it was almost a hundred degrees. It was so, so stinking hot. And then I actually found a restaurant next door that had air conditioning and I could sit in the restaurant and have lunch and video the place at the same time.
Scott Fulmer (28:04):
So that was a win-win for me. And then after doing that, we went and made some purchases ourselves. So we use covert video and we made a purchase of shoes to show that we could buy them as well. And then after it was all over, we followed the individuals back to their homes to find out where they were, what their addresses were and all that information of course, was interned over to the law firm. Unfortunately, a lot of times in, in what I do. And I think you mentioned this as well, we don't always find out what happens at the end because we're already onto something else. So in this case, I didn't know, you know, I don't know how it all ended, but I do believe they dropped the hammer on these guys
Leah Wietholter (28:41):
And these types of cases. Do you think that it's part of like a ring, like they're getting counterfeit product from China and then they're going and selling it, you know, maybe give it to these quote unquote distributors on street corners or is that kind of what these types of things?
Scott Fulmer (28:55):
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a pretty complex deal. I guess you could call it an organized crime. I mean, not in the same way we're talking about the mafia, but yeah, it's, it's basically Oregon. I mean, from what I understand, if you go to, to China, you'll find all these products on the street corner there and they don't pretty much do anything about it. Uh, it's not a big deal. Everything from movies to, to shoes, to close to, you know, Gucci this and, and, uh, and designer that. So yeah, what they do is they come and bring those things back here. Uh, I had another one where a guy was selling a very nice luggage. It was a name brand luggage brand, and he was selling those out of the trunk of his car. So yeah, I mean, you have to ask yourself, I mean, who sells luggage out of the trunk of their car, but Hey, this guy was doing, I mean, it was literally of the trunk of his car and I bought a nice handbag, you know, like a small suitcase from him to, for the case also had another one, uh, that had to do with a very large now defunct toy company that had stores all over the place.
Scott Fulmer (29:56):
This one was a little bit different. It was some other distributor that was doing counterfeit goods as well, but they had, they had actually got these, these counterfeit toys in a major toy store. And so we went in several of these stores and provided video evidence that these toys are there on the shelf. And then of course, we also made purchases and you get to keep the receipts and you turn return the, the toy and the, and the receipt to the client and they go from there. Wow.
Leah Wietholter (30:24):
It's interesting being able to get that inside of a toy store because what's the one place I trust if I'm going to go buy a toy, the toy store. Um, yeah. Wow. Especially a large toy store. That's interesting. So I thought of one other question related to surveillance, you had mentioned the nest and the ring cameras. I know that at least with local law enforcement here in Tulsa, how there are agreements that law enforcement can make with ring to be able to access this data. Have you tried to access any of this information by talking to the people who own the cameras that have those at their property to help you in a case
Scott Fulmer (31:02):
I have. And that's pretty much the only way I've done it so far. So with ring and nest from my understanding is that the individual homeowner can decide to opt in or opt out of having the police department monitor that some people are fine with it. Others don't want that at all. But I had a case in Wyoming where there was a vehicle accident and the ring camera was perfect. I mean, it, it showed the entire accident happening. And I just, uh, went and talked to the individual, told them who I was. So what I was looking for. And they said, yeah, no problem. And they got a thumb drive. I gave him a thumb drive and then they went and got the video off and gave it to me. So, uh, it really depends on the individual. If they're willing to do that, you can obviously subpoena it if you need to. But the other other issue is that it has to be done within a two or three weeks because otherwise the video is rewritten on the, on the hard drive and then it's no longer available at that point. Yeah,
Leah Wietholter (31:57):
I love, cause I hadn't really thought about this. We don't have a lot of cases that involve this, but it just, I like tucking these things away, just another good reminder and just the importance of teaming up with private investigators that do things, you know, that we don't necessarily do. And the power of just talking to people. I mean, for you just to go ask the homeowner, you know, sometimes that feels so intimidating, especially tests, data people, but really just talking to people can learn so much information to then go find data where, you know, you're not just relying on something. Somebody
Scott Fulmer (32:28):
I agree. I mean, I, I worked, uh, years ago before I, I was still a technically a private investigator. I've worked for a large, very large defense contractor, conducting national background investigations for the government. And I carried federal credentials for the officer personnel management. And I would do these background investigations where I've talked to an applicant, for example, who, who was trying to get on with the border patrol or with customs or with the FAA. And I would talk to their, you know, their professors or neighbors, uh, the ex spouse. And I found that you have about 30 seconds before people decide to say no to you, regardless of whatever it is. So whether that first 30 seconds, you have to make it abundantly clear to them who you are and why you're there and what you want. And they need to understand that right away. And if they understand that and if you can build rapport with them, then you can usually get what you need.
Leah Wietholter (33:27):
Yeah. That's a really great tip. Okay. So before we end up sewed, cause I'm pretty sure I could just keep asking you questions, but we'll just have to have another one part two or something. But before we end the episode, is there a case story that you share in your book that would be considered the case? You'll never forget. And will you tell us about it?
Scott Fulmer (33:43):
There's a lot of, and I thought about this and, uh, I, I, I found one that I thought was very, it was interesting to me, at least I'm a big fan of Sherlock Holmes and there was a Sherlock Holmes dictum, which States once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable must be the truth. So I had a case, it kind of, as an example of that, it was a insurance company. And they said that there an individual had filed a theft claim. Someone had broke into his home and stolen a, just a list of stuff. And they wanted me to go out and interview him and, and, uh, cause they, I guess they had, there were some red flags, well, one of the red flags is there was no police report filed, which is really odd. But I went ahead anyway. So this guy lived in Colorado on the top of a mountain and I'm going up there, it's winter time.
Scott Fulmer (34:30):
And the road is just, it's a gravel road. It's winding around the mountain and I'm looking down at these sheer drop-offs so that, you know, if I, if my car goes off the edge there, they're not going to find me til spring. But anyway, I finally got to the top of the mountain and the top of this mountain, there's about three or four homes there. So I go to the first home, which is the subject really nice guy. He's about 80 years old, just sharp as a tack. I mean really, really sharp guy. And I go into his house and he welcomes me very friendly guy. We sit at the, uh, he had like a kitchen counter bar type thing in the kitchen. So we sit down and he starts telling me about all the things that were stolen from his home. And he has a list of these things and he has receipts for some of them.
Scott Fulmer (35:12):
So he was prepared, which is just really nice because not, not, everybody's always prepared like that. And he knew exactly what was, what, and I was, I was really impressed with him. So I started asking him questions about, you know, how did it happen? When did it happen? He said, well, I'm, I'm always here. I'm retired. So I'm always home. But I go to town to the grocery store about once a week or so. And it happened when I was gone, I was gone for about three hours and I said, all right, I, and I sit with her, any, any indications of, you know, broken door lock or, you know, windows broken. He goes, no, everything was fine. He just got, he came in his to his door was locked as normal. And I'm like, huh, well, you got me stumped on this. And so even had a security system and he had like a state-of-the-art security system.
Scott Fulmer (35:57):
He had cameras that covered every nook and cranny everywhere over of his house inside, not inside, but outside all the exterior windows and doors down the sides and the back of the home, everything. And he also had a camera that was on one of his sheds. He had this shed where a four Wheeler was in, was placed and the four Wheeler was one of the things that was stolen. So they still a lot of stuff I thought, huh? He says, well, come here and let me show you the security system. So it's in his bedroom. So we walk into the bedroom and I look over in the nightstand and I was like a 45 caliber handgun. And I thought, Oh great. If I didn't die, falling off the side of the mountain, I'm going to get shot by this guy. No, one's going to know where I'm at.
Scott Fulmer (36:37):
But anyway, so, so we go to the screening system and he shows me and the three hours that he's supposedly gone to town, the, um, security system is just blank. It's like somebody erased it. And I tell you this point, I'm like, ah, this again, you got me stumped. I don't know what to do. But I did notice that throughout our conversation, despite everything else throughout our conversation, he kept saying this phrase, they all think I'm crazy. Uh, and he's talking about his kids. Well, my kids, blah, blah, blah. They all think I'm crazy whatnot. And so I started to have a feeling that maybe this guy was having early, early stages of dementia and I'm not a physician then obviously. So I thanked him. I left and I went and talked to a neighbor and the neighbor knew him. And at first she did not really, I could tell she didn't really want to drop a dime on him, but she eventually said, you know, uh, he's a nice guy, but he's in the very early stages of dementia.
Scott Fulmer (37:39):
So I don't know what's going on with the theft. But there was, you know, she had, she never saw any signs of theft, anything like that. So it ended up talking to his kids and his kids live in town and, and the kids said, yeah, they said, well, he's in the early stages of dementia and everything on his list, everything that he said was stolen, he's actually given away. And he forgets that he's given it away. And so he files a claim with the insurance company. And that was the reason why the police department came out and they took it real. They didn't really take it report. They looked like they were, but they didn't file the report because they knew that they would be back again for another theft. It was kind of sad. I felt kind of sad about it because he was all alone up there on the top of a mountain.
Scott Fulmer (38:22):
He was obviously having some mental health issues. It was evident to me after talking to his son that the son was not being as patient and kind to his father, you know, that you would expect. So I ended up calling the insurance company and said, look, this is not fraud. I know it looks like fraud, but uh, this gentleman, you know, and I explained the whole thing. He's got dementia, he's given all that stuff away. So he, when he does this, I don't know how you want to handle it, but there's really no theft. So that was one of the most interesting cases that I've had.
Leah Wietholter (38:53):
Just one thought I had when, as you're telling that story, is that even though you might've felt stumped as you, as he kept showing you all of these things, I still just appreciate it. Cause we've been talking a lot in like, how do we separate case drama from case facts and things like that. Whenever clients come to talk to us and we talked about that, I totally made this up. I'll admit, but like investigative purpose listening. So you're listening to the story and then gathering like, Oh, this is interesting. And you said that, that he, he said, they all think I'm crazy. So even though you might've been listening, you're listening to his side of the story, he keeps repeating something that then kind of, if I'm understanding your story like that led you to another step. Oh, well his kids think he's crazy. Let me see what the kids think about this. And so I think sometimes in interviews with people, when things aren't adding up, especially when it just seems dramatic and nothing's really making sense that there's still some sort of like you can pull investigative clues and you can pull clues and kind of purpose out of those conversations to help you as the investigator.
Scott Fulmer (40:01):
Oh, definitely. Uh, and I mean, taking statements and interviewing that's a whole nother podcast episode, but yeah. I mean, I've done a lot of that. And uh, when you, you have to try to build rapport with individuals, that's a, that's a huge thing. And then you really have to listen to them. And most of us, myself included at times when we're listening, we are listening because we're waiting so that we can say what we want to say, but I think it was, uh, it was Stephen Covey and his seven habits of highly successful people said that seek first to understand and then to be understood. And so whenever I do statements and interviews, I first try to understand what the person's saying. I really listen intently because you never know, you know, they may give themselves, I mean, you know, this, you do this as well. Uh, but then, you know, you can say your piece after that. But the whole idea is to, is to listen to the individual, to watch the body language, to, uh, find out, you know, so you can get the information that you need.
Leah Wietholter (40:58):
I have to do another, we haven't done an episode on interviewing techniques yet. So we may have to schedule that in for some time this year, or maybe start on our 20, 22 list. But this is just, this is great. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Scott, and taking this time to talk with me. And if our listeners would like to connect with you, what is the best way to do
Scott Fulmer (41:20):
The best way to do so is to go to my website and, uh, I live in the inner mountain West. So it is Intermountain, pei.com.
Leah Wietholter (41:27):
Yeah. And you have a podcast, you have your book, the confessions of a private eye, and we're going to link to all of that in the show notes and, uh, with your Twitter and LinkedIn and all of that. Thank you so much. Again, we'll have to do this again soon. My pleasure.
Closing (41:45):
Thank you for listening to the investigation game. For more information on any of the topics brought up on this show, visit Workman forensics.com. If you enjoyed our show, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can also connect with us on any social media platform by searching Workman forensics. If you have any questions or topic ideas, please email us@podcastatworkmanforensics.com. Thank you.